Sarah Isgur
You ready?
David French
I was born ready.
Sarah Isgur
[upbeat music] Welcome to Advisory Opinions. I’m Sarah Isgur, that’s David French, and we are going to start by telling you that the birthright citizenship oral argument will be Wednesday at 10:00 AM. We’ll give you a little birthright amuse-bouche, if you will, as we start out this podcast, the three questions the court will be considering, and what David and I are most looking at to determine what exactly the vote is on this case. And drum roll, please, we have brought your treat, a present wrapped up in a nice little bow. The 55th governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie, is here to thank you all for donating to the Supreme Court Historical Society. And I can’t even begin to describe where this conversation is going to end up. Has he ever been held in contempt of court? Did he really tell Bob Mueller… Well, that’s what gets you the explicit rating in this podcast, I guess. It’s short, though. It’s a short explicit rating. Does he think that Ford should have pardoned Nixon? And what exactly was he doing at John Ashcroft’s house that Christmas? All this and more on Advisory Opinions. Oh, and don’t worry, he weighs in on whether you should go to law school. Well, David, we, we have to do this before we can get to the governor, and that is the birthright citizenship oral argument is Wednesday morning. We will be live blogging on SCOTUSblog. We will have a live advisory opinion with special guests. I mean, not only you, my always special guest, but Berkeley Law professor Amanda Tyler, who wrote one of the amicus briefs.
David French
A brilliant amicus brief, by the way. It was really good.
Sarah Isgur
Really smart. Professor Akhil Amar, of course, from our AO extended universe, who will be attending the oral argument, and he will be being interviewed by our own Amy Howe outside the court when they leave. So it’ll be a very special Advisory Opinions. That will stream live on SCOTUSblog after the oral argument, or of course, you can listen to it as a regular podcast. And if you tune in to C-SPAN for the oral argument, you will also be surrounded by SCOTUSblog because they are including our live blog in their show as well. Um, David, we have a new explainer video. If you remember that last video that we did from Briefly, they make legal training content that people actually wanna watch, so they combine the skills of top lawyers, like SCOTUSblog and yours truly for the voiceover, with animators, illustrators, and writers to turn dense legal topics, like the birthright citizenship argument, into short, polished videos. So we’ll put that in the show notes. You can watch it. I tweeted it out. It- I think it’s, like… I mean, obviously, I did the voiceover, but I think it’s amazing. How many times can I say I did the voiceover? That’s getting awkward. All right, David, let’s dive into the content here. Just a little brief overview. I will read the 14th Amendment. “All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.” On Donald Trump’s first day in office, he issues an executive order saying that that now will apply only to someone who has at least one parent who, uh, is a citizen or a permanent resident. And the question for the court is, one,
Sarah Isgur
what about the original meaning of the 14th Amendment? What did they intend? Two, Congress passed a statute in 1952 which has the exact same language as the 14th Amendment, but does that mean something different because it was 1952 versus 1868? And three, can a president acting alone through executive order without Congress do anything or say anything about birthright citizenship? So David, those are the three questions for the court at this oral argument. What will you be looking for?
David French
I’m gonna be looking for, is the court going to be going for unanimity on question three as sort of a way of dealing with the issue that… In other words, will the institutionalist sort of view be, “Okay, we don’t even have to deal with the underlying merits here. This executive order, however you wanna slice it, is just, it cannot… It’s not going to overrule, or, or essentially reverse decades of interpretation of the, of the statute, more than 100 years of interpretation of the constitutional provision. This executive order just ain’t it.” As I could easily see nine votes for that proposition. Part of me wonders if it’s gonna be a little bit anticlimactic in the sense that we, yeah, we will have discussion over what the amendment actually means, but could there be a punt in the offi- in the offing? And I, I don’t know, Sarah. Uh, that, that’s genuinely something that I’m, I’m stumped about and very interested about in the oral argument. How much do they wanna go ahead and stampede straight to, you know, the, the actual underlying substantive issue, and is there a way that they can deal with this case without, without going to that? That’s one of the top things I’m looking at.
Sarah Isgur
‘Cause in that sense, this case could look quite a bit like tariffs or student loan debt forgiveness. Congress is welcome to do this, and we’ll hear them out, uh, but a president by executive order can’t do this thing because they don’t have the statutory authority from Congress. But this gets to an interesting question, uh, that the amicus briefs touch on, this idea that in 1868, you have this, you know, “All persons born and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States,” and the history around that, including diplomats, for instance, were not included, obviously. Indian tribes were not included. Then in 1952, so nearly 100 years later, Congress passes this statute. In the meantime-We have had birthright citizenship. So if Congress wanted to clarify or change that practice, they would want to do that in this 1952 statute. Of course, at that point, we’ve also had Japanese internment, for instance, and this is a point that Amanda, Professor Amanda Tyler made, where nobody questioned the citizenship
Sarah Isgur
of the children of Japanese people who were in the United States. They were interred by God, but nobody even thought to say, “Well, they’re not citizens of the United States,” or challenge birthright citizenship. So in 1952 when they have this statute, I think one of the better arguments substantively is that that statute actually could have a different meaning than the 14th Amendment. And David, you know, I just, I reflect on how we talk about versions of, like, bad man stays in jail, and the ability of, for instance, the solicitor general’s office to be able to pick the facts of the cases that they bring to the Supreme Court, and, you know, Rahimi being an excellent case if you’re the government to want to do some 922g work, right? He’s shooting up Whataburgers. This is, like, the reverse of that. It would have been really an interesting case, for instance, if the executive order had said that if you come here on a student or tourist visa, that the children of someone, of parents who are, have no citizenship, no permanent residence, no asylum, for instance, nothing, both parents are here as student visa holders or tourist visa holders, that they are not subject to the jurisdiction thereof and so don’t have birthright citizenship. That would have been an interesting executive order to me. This one’s not that interesting. This is the Rahimi of executive orders.
David French
Exactly. And so I, I would imagine a nine-oh on the, on the very, that third question, can an executive order do this? But it’s really hard for me to count to one [chuckles] even on the underlying substantive issue given this executive order. Now, I’m with you on if you had a denial of citizenship when you actually… Like, you had one of these crystal clear birthright tourism cases, like you have an Airbnb opened for the, a birthing center opened for the specific purpose of foreign families to come and land for three weeks, give birth, pop back out,
David French
that, that I think you would have a much more serious searching inquiry, but not challenging birthright citizenship, but challenging subject to the jurisdiction thereof because of those very unique circumstances. But that doesn’t get to the scale of the issue the Trump administration wants to get to. If you’re talking about, like, actual birthright tourism, that’s a rounding error on a rounding error on a rounding error of human beings relative to the whole population. What he’s trying to get to are children of illegal immigrants. He, that, that’s who he’s wanting to get to here, and that’s just a much heavier lift than the birth r- you know, than a, say, a birthright tourism fact pattern. So yeah, it, it… I’m, I’m with you 100% that that, the factual circumstances here are really not working in the, in the president’s favor.
Sarah Isgur
Exactly. It’s why I think we’re hard-pressed to find people who actually f-follow the Supreme Court closely. Like, the main debate is whether this is gonna be nine-zero or eight-one potentially. And I think it, it turns around, like you said, this question three, you know, can the president do this acting alone on an executive order? How much of the oral argument will only turn around that question? Um, then the fact problem, they could have done this incrementally and, you know, there’s a lot of debate out there, especially among young people, of whether you should be, you know, an incrementalist, take little wins along the way towards your policy goals and make compromises and notch little victories, or be an absolutist. And there’s no right or wrong answer, right? Like, if we’re talking about slavery, obviously you are morally with the angels if you were an absolutist. But in so many other places in our public policy life, the incrementalists tend to win because they have sort of this sustained battle over time, and the Trump administration is full of absolutists, and when it comes to something like this, I, again, I just can’t help but think if they had done the executive order first on, like you said, David, some egregious place that literally advertises birthright tourism, and then they had done, uh, not just tourist visas, but, you know, student visas, and, like, done these executive orders piecemeal by piecemeal, I think they would end up in a far better legal spot and potentially get a far better opinion from the Supreme Court. But like I said, I think this is the Rahimi of executive orders. You’re challenging a gun law on domestic violence, and instead you have a guy who is shooting at his girlfriend as she runs away from the car. The Whataburger declines his friend’s credit card, so he shoots up that. And bonus, he’s a drug dealer. Whee. Like, if you actually want to bring a Second Amendment challenge, that wouldn’t be my guy. If you actually want to challenge birthright citizenship, this wouldn’t be my EO. So lots of things we’re looking for in that oral argument, and as I said, we’ll have a live advisory opinion podcast afterwards. You can tune in on scotusblog.com. I’ll be there all morning live blogging, live podcasting. It’s pretty much an all-day birthright citizenship oral argument fiesta for Sarah. Okay, now coming up, the thing you’ve all been waiting for, your reward
Sarah Isgur
for donating money to the Supreme Court Historical Society and to the Hometown programAfter these messages. And we welcome back to the podcast the 55th governor of New Jersey, but more importantly, that dangling treat that I offered all of you if we raised enough money for the Supreme Court Historical Society. Sure, we can all tell ourselves that Abrielle, the freshman who skipped school to tell us about the Hometown program, was the real draw, but we know, we know why you guys donated. It was to get Chris Christie, the one, the only. Welcome back, sir.
Gov. Chris Christie
Sarah, David, so great to be back, and, and I now have a new title in addition to the 55th governor of New Jersey, master bookseller. That’s what I am.
David French
So, uh, Governor, I asked you this right before you hit record. When you say 55th, that goes all the way back to colonial era, right? So this is pre-founding.
Gov. Chris Christie
Number one is William Livingston, who was the first governor of New Jersey post the Declaration of Independence, so it’s before the founding of the country, but after the Declaration of Independence. So William Livingston was the first governor of New Jersey in 1776. We don’t count Ben Franklin’s son, who was a colonial governor before that. He doesn’t get a number. William Livingston, who is actually the person who my hometown is named after, I grew up in Livingston, New Jersey, named after William Livingston, the first governor of, of, of our state.
Sarah Isgur
And someday we’ll have someone on this podcast who’s growing up in Christie, New Jersey, and will tell us about this long ago governor.
Gov. Chris Christie
Uh, and you’ll still be alive. That’s how much older I am than you, Sarah, so that’ll be great.
Sarah Isgur
That’s my point. I wanted… I’m glad you picked up on the subtext. Okay,
Sarah Isgur
I wanna start, uh, there’s this viral video going around of a lawyer who gets held in contempt in Oklahoma. People have picked apart exactly what this lawyer did wrong. That being said, I don’t think you need to be a lawyer to see what the lawyer did wrong. As one person put it, you know, the judge can interrupt the lawyer. It’s a one-way street. The lawyer does not get to interrupt the judge, and if you do get held in contempt, just my piece of advice, don’t resist arrest. I think that will not go particularly well for you. And so, Governor, I start with this.
Sarah Isgur
You’re known as an outspoken guy. Have you ever been held in contempt of court? [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
No, not even close. Look, you learn, as you know, as a trial lawyer early on, that there are two folks that you don’t want to tick off in the courtroom. Number one is the judge, ’cause that could turn very bad for you, not only personally, but for your client, and you don’t wanna tick off the jury. So, you know, my goal al- always when I was trying cases was to be as absolutely respectful of the judge as I could be, even when I had no respect for the judge at all, um, and, um, to be as charming as I could be to the jury because I figured if they like me, they might like my client.
Sarah Isgur
David, you have said versions of this as well, right?
David French
Yeah. You know, I was just thinking as the governor was talking, if you wanna solve all American civility problems, just have a jury box that goes with you everywhere that is going to be ruling on you, you know, at the end of the day, the week, the month, and you’re gonna just be on your best behavior 100% of the time. That… I have seen lawyers fighting like cats and dogs, snapping at each other, and then as soon as the jury walks in, big smile,
David French
handshake, you know, the, “I am the most reasonable person in the room,” and you just wanna stand up and go, “He’s fooling [laughs] you. He’s putting on an act.” But it, it is remarkable.
Sarah Isgur
Like John Kasich in the 2016 presidential campaign.
Gov. Chris Christie
Like John Kasich, like John Kasich any time he’s in public.
Sarah Isgur
Uh, okay, what about Rule 11 sanctions? Have you ever been sanctioned or have you filed for sanctions against another party?
Gov. Chris Christie
No to both. Um, yeah. No, I have never filed for Rule 11 sanctions against anyone. Look, m- my view was, and especially in a place like, like New Jersey, it’s a, it’s a very tight-knit legal community. It’s a, it’s a bar that does not allow people to wave in. Um, you cannot be admitted in New Jersey unless you take and pass the New Jersey bar exam. And so as a result it’s, it’s a very tight-knit group. You don’t have a lot of outsiders wandering in and out. So I always try to feel like, you know, whatever problems I had, and I certainly had them, um, over the course of my career with other lawyers, I, I tried to resolve it without going to Rule 11 sanctions. And so no, never filed for Rule 11 sanctions. And how dare you, never had Rule 11 sanctions filed against me, ever.
David French
I’ve never had ’em imposed, but as, uh, on me, but as befitting my reputation as by far the more cruel and mean person compared to Governor Christie, I have absolutely filed for Rule 11 sanctions and gotten them imposed to such an extent that I got a, a lawyer banned from ever practicing law in that particular courtroom again. Now, he committed grotesque acts of aggression against me. [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
You are the person who ruins other people’s careers for one step out of line. Well, great to be with you, David.
Sarah Isgur
Okay, so I think what will surprise people about this video if they go watch it is the also universal belief that this lawyer probably isn’t gonna get disbarred. In fact, it’s probably not even a close call. A- and so the line between, like, being held in contempt, being sanctioned by the court, and then the very long mile over to being disbarred, I think surprises people. Governor, have you ever dealt with disbarment proceedings and, like, what theLike I, I to this moment standing here have looked into all sorts of lawyers that I thought, “Ah, maybe that will do it.” And no, I’ve never actually seen one get really disbarred beyond, like, what is basically criminal behavior.
Gov. Chris Christie
Look, I- the- the- in New Jersey, one of the, one of the hard and fast rules which has never been compromised, um, is that if you touch in any way your attorney trust account, you’re disbarred. Like, if you take money out for a day and put it right back, you’re disbarred, and I’ve seen it happen. The only people I’ve ever seen that get disbarred are the two, uh, the other instance you mentioned as well, which when I was US attorney, I saw a number of lawyers who I prosecuted and convicted who then wound up getting disbarred as well for committing federal felonies. That’s pretty understandable. Um, but the, the trust account thing, while it is very serious ’cause you’re, you’re, you’re p- you’re, you know, messing with your client’s money, not your own, um, even in those situations where there were really extenuating circumstances, alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling addiction, those kind of things, uh, there are… It is a hard and fast rule, and the Supreme Court in New Jersey, which makes those decisions. In New Jersey, the bar association does not make those decisions. It’s the seven members of the Supreme Court. Um, they have never wavered. You touch your trust account for five minutes, you are gonna be disbarred.
Sarah Isgur
I feel like we should disbar more attorneys. What do you think?
Gov. Chris Christie
There’s already too many, and there’s, and there’s a whole bunch that really deserve it. So yeah, I think, I do think that our profession is a very lenient self-policer, only, only exceeded in leniency by the medical profession-
Sarah Isgur
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
… because let me tell ya,
Gov. Chris Christie
a lot scarier, a lot scarier. And I, you know, I’ve dealt with doctors over the years who, you know, it is seemingly almost impossible to take a doctor’s medical license. Um, and so they’re even more lenient than we are, but it’s, it’s, it’s not, I think, the perfect model of self-policing, and we’ve got too many lawyers out there that are just not up to the job, but they’re good [beep] artists, and so they wind up getting clients, uh, convinced of their skills or what they’re doing for them, when in fact they’re not up to the job.
Sarah Isgur
Okay, well, speaking of being held in contempt, Robert Mueller, former FBI director, passed away recently, and you and I were on This Week together that week, and you told me a story that you couldn’t tell on TV because, uh, there is no option for an explicit rating on network news. But here at Advisory Opinions, there sure as hell is. [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
So you want me to go full monty on this one? You want me to give the entire story? Good, okay. Well, that’s no problem. So when I was US attorney in New Jersey, um, beginning in, in January of 2002, it’s the fifth-largest office, it was at least at that time, in the country, and we had our main FBI office was the FBI, um, office in Newark. And, you know, having a good special agent in charge is extraordinarily important to the US attorney because the FBI’s your main investigative agency. It’s really important for there to be consistency and agreement between the FBI SAC and the US attorney on what we’re gonna pursue, what we’re gonna put resources on, both from a investigative and a prosecutorial perspective, and if you get that lined up, you can do some really great stuff. My problem was that I went through in my first 13 or 14 months, I was on my third special agent in charge in Newark, all of whom had been taken back to Washington, DC beforehand. So when the third one is getting ready to be named, I called Director Mueller and said, “Look, y- this is incredibly difficult. You’ve been a US attorney, Bob. You know what this is like. Please don’t send me someone who is, you know, prone to be taken back to DC or sent someplace else by you. I’d rather have someone a step down in terms of talent, um, but who’s gonna stay and I can work with and, and we can do good things together.” And he said to me, “Ah, yes, Chris, you’re absolutely right. Um, I’m sorry that I had to do those things. You know, this post-9/11 period, we’re moving a lot of pieces around the board. Sure you understand.” Now, we’re, we’re in 2003, spring, spring, summer of ’03 when he’s telling me this. And, and he said, “But I give you my word.” He said, um, “The next person you get, you’ll have at least for two years.”
Gov. Chris Christie
Like, “Perfect. That’s great.” So he names a really fine FBI agent, a special agent in charge named Joe Billy, and Joe and I get together. Man, we’re right on the same page. It’s great. We’re doing some really great investigations, and literally within months of when Joe Billy gets there, I get a call from Joe Billy. He said, “I need to see you.” He comes over and he says to me, “I’m leaving.” I said, “You’re quitting the FBI?” He goes, “No, no, no. The director called me. I’m gonna be the new head of the Counterterrorism section in, in Washington, and he says he really needs me, so, uh, we’re moving and we’re moving quickly.”
Gov. Chris Christie
Well, as it would turn out, that very week I was heading down. I was a member of the attorney general’s advisory committee, which is, you know, Sara, is 17 US attorneys who are selected by the attorney general from around the country to give advice and counsel to the AG and the DAG.
Sarah Isgur
And get to spend quality time with the head of Public Affairs, which not every US attorney gets that privilege.
Gov. Chris Christie
No, and although, although the head of Public Affairs during the Ashcroft years was not nearly as interesting as you, Sara, so-
Sarah Isgur
Hey, I worked for both Barbara Comstock and Mark Corallo. They are my mentors. And little side story here, when I worked for Mark, one of my jobs was to bring him in the morning papers, and I could sit there in his grand office and read them while he did his morning, you know, return calls to reporters. And-I have this great memory post 9/11 also of him talking to I don’t know who, and, ’cause all I hear is his side of the conversation. And he says, “They wanna kill you, they wanna kill me, and they wanna kill all our families.” And this was definitely about Patriot Act reauthorization. So [laughs] and that’s how I learned to do my job.
Gov. Chris Christie
Yeah. Well, and, and, and Carollo has taught us all a thing or two over, over the years, for sure. So I’m gonna go down to this meeting, and we’re gonna meet with Bob Mueller. So I show up early to the meeting with Bob Mueller, and I’m waiting outside the conference room, and down he strides, former, uh, you know, uh, a former US attorney, Marine Corps veteran, striding s- straight and stiff down the hallway, Bob Mueller, with his entourage. And I said, “Director, can I speak to you for a moment?” And he’s like, “Of course, Chris.” So we go off to the side a little bit, and he says, “What’s up?” And I said, “Seriously? You’re taking Joe Billy? I mean, didn’t we talk about this?” And he said, “We did, but I need him down here, so yeah, he’s coming down here.” I said, “Well, wait a second.” I said, “You promised me that the next person was gonna stay at least two years, and you’ve broken your promise. I mean, how the hell am I supposed to work with you if I can’t take your word for anything?” And he said to me, “Hey, you know what? I have priorities down here. This is what I have to do.” He said, t- “It’s, I, all I can say to you is we’ll try to get you a good person.” And I said, “Well, then why did you promise me at all if that’s the way it’s gonna be?” And he said, “Live with it.” And I looked at him and I said, “Well,” I said, “you know what? I have a suggestion for you.” I said, “Don’t write checks with your mouth that your ass can’t cash.” And he… And now other US attorneys are walking into the conference room, and we’re standing outside, and they’re hearing this. And, and then he looked at me and he said, “[beep] you.” And I said, “[beep] you too.” And then we walked into the conference room together. And Deborah, Deborah Yang, who was the US attorney in Los Angeles at the time, I s- was sitting next to her, and I sat down and she goes, “Did you just tell the director of the FBI to [beep] off?” I said, “No, I did not. I told him [beep] you.” I said, “And in response to him saying [beep] you to me first, so I think it’s permissible.” And it, some of the people in that room, Sarah, that day, Deborah Yang, Patrick Fitzgerald, Jim Comey, this was a, this was a cavalcade, Paul McNulty, this was a cavalcade of stars, and they all were, like, with their mouths wide open. They’re like, “What did you just do?” I’m like, “Hey.” We, after the meeting was over and, and Bob left, then we had a conversation about that. They’re like, “What happened?” So I explained the story. And they said, “And, and you basically just said [beep] you to him?” I said, “Again, can I be clear here? He said it to me first.” I said, “Now, maybe I shouldn’t have said, ‘Don’t write checks with your mouth that your ass can’t cash.’ Maybe that was a… It, uh, was, it is a New Jersey special.” And, and he [laughs] seemed, having, having spent most of his time in California, he seemed completely mystified by the statement, but he knew it was not flattering. And-
Sarah Isgur
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
And so, yeah, that was Mueller and I. And, and then fast-forward, I didn’t, you know, we worked together at a distance, um, for the next five years or so when, when I was US attorney, and then I became governor, and we really didn’t have any interaction. But then when he was doing the Trump-Russia investigation, I get called to come down and be interviewed
Gov. Chris Christie
in the Trump-Russia investigation.
Sarah Isgur
You were part of the transition team, you know.
Gov. Chris Christie
I was the chairman of the transition team, so they wanted to know.
Sarah Isgur
Albeit briefly. [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
Actually, to be fair, I was chairman of the transition from April to November. It was just the after November part that I didn’t get. They let me do all the un-fun work, and then let someone else do the fun work. So I, I go down there, and I’m being interviewed by a number of the lawyers
Gov. Chris Christie
who are on his team, and then the door swings open, and in walks Bob Mueller.
Gov. Chris Christie
And he, and, and he comes over to me and I stand up and we shake hands. And I said, “Bob, how are you?” And he said, “Pretty good, Governor. How g- how are you doing?” And I said, “I’m doing just fine.” I was still governor at the time when this interview went on. And, and he said to me, “So,
Gov. Chris Christie
writing any checks lately with your mouth that your ass can’t cash?”
Sarah Isgur
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
And I looked at him and I said, “As far as I know, there’s only one of us in this room who’s done that.” And he laughed and said, “I’m gonna sit in on this interview.” And I was like, “Feel free.” And he sat down and sat in on what was a rather uneventful interview for about an hour. Um, and it was over, and he gave me another hearty handshake on my way out, and that was in fact the last time that I ever saw Bob Mueller was in 2017 during, during that interview. But he remembered. I mean, think about that. He remembered that insult from 14 years earlier. So it obviously made an impression.
David French
Well, that was gonna be my question, because how, I, I guess from the shock around you that a US attorney and an FBI director don’t normally tangle like that, that the, that this is not, yeah, very hierarchical, and although he’s not your boss, he’s
David French
bigger, I would suppose, in, in the pecking order.
Gov. Chris Christie
He’s got some influence. Yeah, but I, I mean, the other thing to remember too, David, is I was, this was 2003, so I was 40 years old at the time.
Gov. Chris Christie
So, you know, I think that your, your, um, control of your temper at 40 is significantly different than it was at 50, and is now at 63. And look, for me too, I, I felt like, and this is the stuff that always gets me and got me when I was US attorney, I felt like-If you’re dealing with someone inside DOJ, and this is funny given what we’re dealing with today, but I believe you’re dealing with someone inside DOJ, we could tell each other the truth, and if you made a promise, you were gonna keep it.
Gov. Chris Christie
And so to me, I thought, God, the director of the FBI, Bob Mueller, he makes me a promise, I could take that to the bank and, and, and deposit it. And when he didn’t, I was just like, I wanted him to know that I wasn’t gonna be played like some fool, um, like some of these other people that, that he might be dealing with who would just be so scared of him that they, they would let him walk all over him. I, I just… And by the way, the next special agent in charge I got stayed for three years.
Gov. Chris Christie
So maybe, maybe it was effective.
Sarah Isgur
All right. When we get back, Governor Christie is in mourning related to our previous conversation, and we’ll talk about why. All right, Governor, there’s two more big issues I wanna discuss with you. One, the Department of Justice in its current state, as you alluded to, and two,
Sarah Isgur
I have been going around the country quite a bit lately, and the number one question that I get is the number one question that David and I have been getting since we started this podcast in 2019, “Should I go to law school?” So we’re gonna get to that in a second. But first, you said on Sunday that you are in mourning for the Department of Justice. I guess I’m not as curious as to why, although I want you to say a little bit as to why now versus at any other point in the last year, but also what
Sarah Isgur
you think will happen next. Like, what’s the solution coming out of this? How do you get back to,
Sarah Isgur
you know, the Department of Justice that you and I walked through in the marble halls and the, uh, WPA artwork in the stairwells that was both beautiful and a little bit creepy sometimes. The baby faces. For whatever reason, they could not paint children very well. So if you ever are in the Department of Justice, you’re gonna wanna go to any of the stairwells ’cause for some reason they were both very fond of and very poor at painting children’s faces, and so they’re all a little creepy. Uh, there’s like a mom in like a wheat field holding a baby, and you’re like, “That’s not a baby, ma’am.”
Sarah Isgur
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
I know the one you’re talking about.
Sarah Isgur
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
That’s very, very good. Very scary. Very scary.
Gov. Chris Christie
So why, why right now? Uh, yeah, look, I’m someone who w- was a political appointee like you, so I, I had involvement in politics before I became US attorney, but it was made very clear to me
Gov. Chris Christie
by John Ashcroft before I took the job, who also came from the world of politics, that our political days were over
Gov. Chris Christie
for the next number of years, however long we were in the Department of Justice.
Sarah Isgur
I don’t wanna interrupt ’cause this is an important story, but just while we’re on John Ashcroft, because I think some of our younger listeners will not know about his previous political career and, uh, he was a US senator. Who cares? Uh, the point is you need to go find the YouTube video of the barbershop quartet that John Ashcroft was a part of with other senators and him singing, uh, “Let the Eagle Fly,” I believe was the title of the song.
Sarah Isgur
We’ll put it in the show notes, um, but yeah, if you are under the age of 40, you’re gonna need to watch that if you haven’t seen it because in the post 9/11 world, this was like a moment of levity that was not intended to be a moment of levity awkwardly. [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
Well, and, and that… See, you’ve now div- you’ve now diverted me off to another absolutely necessary story. When John Ashcroft was leaving as attorney general at the end of the president, President Bush’s first term, he invited those of us on the HEAC, we invited him out to dinner as a goodbye dinner in DC.
Sarah Isgur
That man’s not gonna spend money on dinner.
Gov. Chris Christie
No, we took him out. We paid.
Sarah Isgur
Oh, okay. That, that he might be willing to do. I mean, he… Like, o- one of my jobs, uh, at one point, something I, I needed to bring him his lunch or come up during lunch. Anyway, it was the saddest brown bag. Not like brown bag in the colloquial sense. It was literally a brown bag with a smashed peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and that was it that the man had. It was-
Gov. Chris Christie
He was not, he was not a big spender. You’re absolutely right. So we all took him out to dinner, and then he said, “Janet,” his wife’s name is Janet, “Janet and I would like you all to come back to the house for dessert.” So okay. So we come back to their house. They have this great, um, uh, brownstone house in Georgetown. Or not in Georgetown, on Capitol Hill rather. And so we all come to the house, and it’s one of those kitchens where there’s a window into the kitchen with like a, a, like a l- a, a, a block that comes down, like, and, and so she lifts up the window. And she had made a cake. It’s a big, round, um, yellow cake with chocolate icing,
Gov. Chris Christie
and she had a tub, like a half gallon of vanilla ice cream next to it. And she’s like, “Okay, everybody. Grab your plates and come get some cake.” And so she’s, here’s Janet Ashcroft serving us cake. We then go into their living room, and there’s a big bookcase in the living room. And as you probably know, Sarah, Janet Ashcroft has written one of the definitive texts, law school texts on tax, on tax law. And
Gov. Chris Christie
there are all these books up there, first edition, second, third, fourth, fifth. Ashcroft takes us over and he says, is showing us the books, and he goes, “You all might, um, wonder, how did I afford a house like this having only been governor and United States senator?” He goes, “It’s these books. My wife has put me in the style to which I have become accustomed.”
David French
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
Um, and, and then… Oh, yeah.
David French
I had no idea either.
Gov. Chris Christie
And then-
David French
This is news to me.
Gov. Chris Christie
Yeah. Then, [laughs] then John Ashcroft sits down at the piano
Gov. Chris Christie
and says, “Okay, we’re all gonna sing Christmas carols together.”And he played a number of Christmas carols, no music in front of him, he plays completely by ear, and the first one he started was Jingle Bells.
Gov. Chris Christie
So he’s playing and he’s singing Jingle Bells, and we’re all standing there not doing anything, and he gets about three lines in to Jingle Bells and he stops, and he goes, “I’m still the attorney general. Sing.”
Sarah Isgur
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
And so everybody has to sing Jingle Bells, um, uh, with, uh, with John Ashcroft. And, and then we finish the cake, and he’s like, “Okay, thanks for dinner. Good night everybody.” And we’re up in this neighborhood in Capitol Hill, and we all walk out. We had been brought there by Justice Department vans, so we thought the vans would still be out there to bring us back to our hotel. Oh, no, and there are no taxis anywhere. So here are 17 of supposedly the most prominent US attorneys in the country who are wandering down the street on Capitol Hill looking for, oh, I don’t know, six or seven taxis [laughs] to take us back to our hotel. So John Ashcroft, so thrifty that he sent the vans back to DOJ while we were inside. We later found out that he was the one who sent the vans back. “Oh, they’ll get their way back. Don’t worry about it.” I turned again to Deb Yang, the, the Los Angeles US attorney, and while we were singing Christmas carols, and I said, “Can you believe this?” And she’s like, “We’ll be talking about this 20 years from now.” And now here I am on Advisory Opinions talking about it 20 years from now. So, you know, uh, when you bring up John Ashcroft, I think about his j- his wife Janet, how she was the one who made all the money, and, um, [laughs] and him playing piano by ear and singing Christmas carols and demanding that we sing them with him in 2004.
Sarah Isgur
Well, let me tell you the difference between John Ashcroft and Jeff Sessions. When we went over at Christmas time to Attorney General Sessions’ home, Mary Sessions, his wife, did not make us cake. She taught us her special eggnog recipe, and let me tell you, it’s just a shot of whiskey [laughs] with … Like, that’s what cures the egg. You basically crack the egg into the whiskey and stir, and, like, that’s the ball game. It’s incredible, and, like, it’s a totally different drink than eggnog is that you, like, buy at the grocery store that’s like a custardy flavor thing. Like, that is not Mary Sessions’ eggnog. And, um, she, she gave me her cookbook, um, that has the eggnog recipe in it, so every year I make everyone else try this incredible eggnog because you haven’t had eggnog, in my opinion, until you’ve had Mary Sessions’ eggnog. And don’t you feel that that is a metaphor for Attorney General Ashcroft versus Attorney General Sessions? [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
Yeah, I mean, you know, you wanna think about sentences you never thought you’d hear said out loud in your lifetime. “You ain’t had eggnog till you had Mary Sessions’ eggnog.” Like, not something that I really thought I’d ever hear out loud. I, I … Thank you, Sarah, for that. You’ve contributed to, to-
Sarah Isgur
Alabama don’t mess around, y’all.
Gov. Chris Christie
Yeah, apparently not. And, uh, you know, there’s Jeff, you know, counting the money out of the collection plate at church and then getting hammered on the eggnog. That’s great. Yeah, very good. Excellent.
David French
I mean, a story repeated a million times across the South. [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
So I, I,
Gov. Chris Christie
Ashcroft told us, “No politics. Your political life for the next number of years is over, and it is a firing offense. If I see you getting involved in partisan politics in any way, I will recommend to the president that you be fired.” And he told us, each one of us that individually when we went for our meeting with the attorney general right before we were, uh, the president signed our commissions. And so to see Todd Blanche
Gov. Chris Christie
go to CPAC,
Gov. Chris Christie
first of all, just going to CPAC is breathtaking. Breathtaking.
Gov. Chris Christie
Then to see him become this master suck-up,
Gov. Chris Christie
how am I gonna … You know, how am I gonna get this group of people to cheer for what is in essence a Wall Street lawyer, who these people at CPAC hate as much as anybody? So how am I gonna get them to cheer for a Wall Street lawyer? I’m gonna tell them that anybody who was ever involved in any investigation of President Trump, either a lawyer inside DOJ or an agent inside the FBI, has been purged. They’re gone. In fact, he said, “There’s no one with a gun
Gov. Chris Christie
who has, you know, investigated President Trump at the FBI.” And here’s the ironic thing about this Justice Department. They expect every one of their employees right now, career employees, to do exactly what they’re told by them, yet they fired dozens and dozens and dozens of employees who only did the very same thing, which was to follow orders from politically appointed and Senate confirmed superiors to conduct investigations that were directed to them by the attorney general of the United States and his leadership team. I mean, the hypocrisy
Gov. Chris Christie
of Todd Blanche
Gov. Chris Christie
is nauseating.
Gov. Chris Christie
And look, I, I served under a number of different DAGs when I was US attorney. Larry Thompson, who I think is one of the finest attorneys and people that I’ve ever met. Um, then Jim Comey, not one of the finest attorneys and human beings I’ve ever met. Uh, Paul McNulty, neh. He was in charge during the US attorney firing scandal. That’s about all you need to know. None of them, though-Despite whatever my personal feelings might be, none of them would have ever gone to CPAC.
Gov. Chris Christie
They wouldn’t have gone to their local municipal Republican club. And it just shows that the only object of anyone in senior leadership in the Trump administration is to suck up to the boss. That’s it. That’s their only objective, suck up to the boss, and that’s what Todd Blanche was doing by showing up at CPAC. Let me guarantee you something. When Todd Blanche leaves the Trump administration, he’ll never be at CPAC again, ever.
Gov. Chris Christie
He only went to suck up to the President of the United States and to, and to gloat
Gov. Chris Christie
over firing decent public servants who did what they were ordered to do by their Senate-confirmed superiors, uh, uh, fealty, which they demand without exception now.
Sarah Isgur
I want to be thoughtful about sharing some of the details of this, but when I was at the Office of Public Affairs, the, the head of the office is responsible for the attorney general, and then you have usually your political deputy, who’s responsible for the deputy attorney general. But of course, I had two attorneys general. I had an attorney general and an acting attorney general, and then he was also the deputy attorney general, and so we had to sort of shuffle how we did things. Um, so I handled the acting attorney general [laughs] and the attorney general, and my political deputy handled deputy attorney general world. But that still left the team that was working for Mueller and that investigation, which of course had endless media needs and public affairs stuff going on. And so I assigned one of my career staff, and I wanted to be very thoughtful about that. Obviously, I wanted someone who was very talented to be able to handle just the huge amount that was incoming on that investigation.
Sarah Isgur
But I, I also was looking for a certain temperament, and so I picked
Sarah Isgur
the most hardworking and talented career guy on my team, who also had been hired during the Bush administration, again, as a career, but nevertheless, and had a conservative temperament. That’s why I picked him for the Mueller team, because I didn’t want someone who was, like, a rabid, you know, super liberal who’s, like, gonna go after Trump or leak things to the media in order to hurt the president, et cetera. So that’s the person they went and fired as soon as they came in this time. And, like, there’s no thought to, like, why that person might have been picked in the first place and that they’re literally getting rid of someone who, as a career guy, had far more in common with their, you know, with conservatism at least, than lots of the other people. And, like, that’s why a lot of these people were picked by politicals. And it’s, as you said, it’s endlessly upsetting because they, they did what was asked of them and what their duty was in the department, the very thing that we ask of civil servants, and that’s why they were fired, and there was no thought given to
Sarah Isgur
the hard work, the talent, the dedication, and the fact that it’s what they expect of the rest of the staff that’s there, which is galling. I, I lack a better term.
Gov. Chris Christie
And, and by the way, Sarah, you know, the idea that they posit is that these investigations into President Trump were all completely political and without basis. Yet, grand juries indicted on this evidence. Grand juries indicted. Now, at the time, what did you hear from Trump people? “Oh,
Gov. Chris Christie
a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich.” Well, now that they’re in charge,
Gov. Chris Christie
what do we have happening? Uh, they can’t get… Those ham sandwiches are getting away with murder.
Sarah Isgur
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
And, and, and so are they now going to fire the agents and the lawyers who were involved in bringing those cases? Because obviously against James Comey and Letitia James, um, and, and others,
Gov. Chris Christie
um, they were baseless
Gov. Chris Christie
because the grand juries no-billed them. No, they won’t do that. So I mean, Todd Blanche, you know, I said this yesterday on ABC, and it w- it bears repeating, I think. You know, this is the administration that now has us in the midst of a war in Iran,
Gov. Chris Christie
I think, to end Iran’s nuclear ambitions, that they’re the same administration that in June of last year told us that Operation, you know, Midnight Hammer had obliterated
Gov. Chris Christie
the nuclear capability of Iran, and anybody who thinks they could rebuild that in, you know, eight months hasn’t been following the history of this endeavor. What’s being obliterated is not the nuclear program in Iran. The reputation of the Justice Department is being obliterated, and Todd Blanche, who had a good reputation inside DOJ before he got involved with the President of the United States, is now obliterating his reputation. I can’t imagine that there would be a sane law firm
Gov. Chris Christie
or a sane client
Gov. Chris Christie
who would hire this guy after he gets out of there. I know some will ’cause there are plenty of insane clients, but there are no sane ones who would hire a guy who would so sell his soul
Gov. Chris Christie
to be Deputy Attorney General of the United States.
Sarah Isgur
It profit a man nothing to sell his whole soul for the world, but for DAG?
Gov. Chris Christie
I mean, seriously, for the DAG? Come on.
David French
So how do we put Humpty Dumpty back together again? I mean, I, I feel like people don’t understand the magnitude of what we’ve lost because you could have the next administration, let’s say it’s a Democratic administrationThey could double down on this. You could have, you could have a Democratic DAG and an ActBlue convention next time, or maybe they say, “We need to restore, return to normalcy.” But even then, you’re trying to knit back together again customs and habits and practices that were built up over years and years with no assurance that the next administration, when you repair these customs and habits, will appreciate the effort at all. And so how are we… How is Humpty Dumpty reassembling here?
Sarah Isgur
And can I just mention a rumor that I’ve been hearing? And I wanna be clear that, like, yes, I started it, but, like, nevertheless, I wanna ask you about it. What if Rahm Emanuel won the presidency and appointed, like, a former US attorney who was, like, a Republican to be attorney general, like he’d been the 55th governor of a state? Like, any state will do, but, like, just 55th governor of a state I think is important. But, like, you know, a Democratic president picking a Republican attorney general. Would that, would that be something that one should consider?
Gov. Chris Christie
I, I, I think the first thing is
Gov. Chris Christie
the, the next president has to care about it,
Gov. Chris Christie
about putting Humpty Dumpty back together. If the next president does not care about it, it won’t happen. And then I do think, as Sarah just suggested, having nothing to do with me, but I think whoever the next president is, Republican or Democrat, should give serious thought to appointing someone of the opposite party,
Gov. Chris Christie
and that they’re charged to that person, who would have to be someone that they, I think, that they knew and completely trusted their integrity,
Gov. Chris Christie
that they would say to them, “Look, I don’t want to know anything about the criminal investigations that are going on at the Justice Department. I just want to know that they’re being done with one goal in mind, and that is to achieve justice.
Gov. Chris Christie
And go and do your job. Now, on policy stuff, yeah, we’re gonna have to talk about the policy of what we do. I’m the president, you know, and, and you have to, you know, we have to work together on that. But on anything having to do with criminal investigations, and I want you to instruct your US attorneys that if there is a hint of partisanship, that they will be fired.”
Gov. Chris Christie
Now, if you get a president who’s willing to do that, and an attorney general who’s willing to partner with them, I think after six to eight years, we could have restored some trust. But it’s gonna take that long even under that construct because there’s still gonna be conspiracy theorists all over this country who are gonna say, no matter what they do, that, you know, they’re in the tank. You have to provide at least as much time as it’s taken for them to break this. And quite frankly, I think it really started with Eric Holder and the Obama administration, and the president picking his wingman to be the AG, kind of like Nixon picking John Mitchell. Um, I think Obama’s selection of Holder was, was just as flawed as Nixon picking John Mitchell. It started then slowly and has obviously accelerated during the Trump and Biden years, and it’s another reason why the other thing for sure is the next president of the United States should be under 75 years old.
Sarah Isgur
So you guys are out?
Gov. Chris Christie
How da- how dare you?
Gov. Chris Christie
How dare you? I won’t be 75-
Sarah Isgur
For months
David French
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
… till 2033, so calm down. 75? No, I won’t be 75 till 2037.
Sarah Isgur
Oh, he’s already losing some of his faculties, you guys.
David French
[laughs]
Sarah Isgur
He doesn’t even know. [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
I couldn’t, I couldn’t pass the t- the test apparently that Trump is passing, um, you know, for cognitive ability ’cause it’s so difficult. But look, I just think that, David, that’s the only way to do it because anybody from your own party who you were to appoint,
Gov. Chris Christie
it would be very difficult for a large part of the country to believe that they weren’t acting in a way that was partisan. And you know, when I was US attorney, there was a lot of talk about those kind of things ’cause we did
Gov. Chris Christie
130 political corruption prosecutions in seven years, 60-plus percent of them Democrats, and, “Oh, is he being partisan?” I said, “Look, I’m happy to have any of the cases examined, and the first time someone’s found not guilty,
Gov. Chris Christie
like go ahead and, you know, we can examine that one.” But juries have found every one of these people guilty or, quite frankly, like Charles Kushner, they pled guilty pre-indictment. So you know, uh, fact is that we did that in New Jersey, but even during that time when we didn’t have any, any losses, there were still people who thought there might be some partisanship involved. And so, you know, it’s gonna take a long time to fix it. And when I hear Democrats say, “Oh, he’s a threat to democracy,”
Gov. Chris Christie
I, I don’t think Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. I think what he is is a threat to our democratic institutions, and I think that’s different. We’re not gonna not have elections. We’re not gonna have a dictator or king. We’re not gonna have any of those things. But he is destroying institutions like the Department of Justice.
Sarah Isgur
David, I’m very torn on this question, and I think you and I are probably gonna come out on opposite ends of it. So we’ll see if Governor Christie would be the tiebreaker here.
Sarah Isgur
Assume it’s a Democratic administration that comes in. Assume they don’t follow your advice, Governor, and it’s a, a, you know, Democratic ally of the president, uh, but a high-integrity one. Or, or for that matter, assume it is someone f- you know, who’s a Republican. It’s you. Let’s make you attorney general. Do you take a pass
Sarah Isgur
on investigating people from this administration who you have a high belief committed a crime potentially, but in order to restore the institution and restore trust and normsYou gotta kinda take a pass on this, or else it’s just gonna be this tit for tat and back and forth, ’cause people aren’t really gonna know the difference between investigations that are, um, partisan versus meaningful, because that difference can be a little bit in the eye of the beholder.
Sarah Isgur
David, I’m curious what your take on that is.
David French
Well, first, I think it’s not ever going to be a dilemma, because I think Trump is going to be pardoning at scale.
Sarah Isgur
Okay, assume he doesn’t, as- or assume there’s someone who doesn’t get the pardon or whatever. Like, from a philosophical standpoint,
Sarah Isgur
would you tell your Department of Justice to stand down on those things?
David French
I would not say to stand down on a criminal investigation, although what I would try to do… Because the one thing that I would be very worried about is these revolving purges. So you, you come in and you have a Democratic administration comes in and then just starts purging everybody who was sort of brought in, uh, because, you know, right now the DOJ is having trouble hiring. They’re looking at people right out of law school, which they’ve, you know, typically have not done. So I think I would look at it and sort of say, “If you’re an employee, everyone’s sort of amnestied. I’m just gonna judge you on how you do your job while you’re under my, you know, my direction.” But when it comes to the criminal investigations, you know my song and dance, Sarah, about accountability and immunity. I, I just don’t see how we’re making our country better without accountability and by extending so much immunity. And so, um, you know, that’s why I’ve done a complete 180 on the Ford pardon of Nixon, is I- we’ve just been going down a road where if you ascend to a certain level of power in the government, then you operate with a degree of impunity
David French
that, by the way, the founders, would boggle the founders’ mind because a lot of these things that they would’ve said, if you’re George Mason and you could see into the future and you’re in the Virginia ratification debate and you’re running through these non-hypos that have occurred, you know, in the v- distant future, James Madison would be sitting there going, “Oh, the, all those people have been impeached, uh, I mean, obviously. Like, of course they’re impeached. There’s just no way that’s not happening.”
Sarah Isgur
This is the same James Madison that was a total lackey for Jefferson, so I disagree. At least later, my second James Madison, where he has his brain transplant. Uh, Governor, I still think that the Ford pardon of Nixon was correct for the country.
Gov. Chris Christie
Well, let, let me first start off that I thought that you guys were like, one of the things on this show was that you watched what the United States Supreme Court was doing. David’s talking as if the recent decision on Trump immunity didn’t happen. I mean, like, how do you… You know, the United States Supreme Court has granted
Gov. Chris Christie
enormously broad, in my view, and I think incorrectly granted enormously broad immunity to the President of the United States. And so some of this stuff, as to the president, even post-office, is, is n- not even hypothetical, it’s just impossible, um, given the current state of the law in the country, and I was, I was stunned by that decision.
Sarah Isgur
But to be clear, I’m gonna push back here. I didn’t like the decision in terms of how it was written or lack of writing, but DOJ filed the exact same charges against Donald Trump, like statutory charges, the second the Supreme Court had that decision, and it would’ve moved forward, but for him winning the election. So, like-
Gov. Chris Christie
How do you know it would’ve moved forward? How do you know it would not have been dismissed by a district court judge based upon that decision? I mean, I… When I read that decision, I think it would’ve been dismissed.
Sarah Isgur
Fair enough. We can arm wrestle over that. But they changed their theory to all, you know, that it was all unofficial conduct, and therefore they could move forward with it. It’s at least a c-
Gov. Chris Christie
Yeah, I know, but that’s a factual determination, Sarah.
Sarah Isgur
Fair, but we at least have the outstanding question of whether the Supreme Court decision would’ve prevented the exact prosecution in question from moving forward.
Sarah Isgur
They refiled, same charges.
Gov. Chris Christie
Yeah. This, uh, look, I do not wanna get into an argument about the Supreme Court’s decision in the Trump case with you, um, except to say that you’re wrong. Um, so but let me tell you that I agree with you. Look, if I were in that position,
Gov. Chris Christie
I wouldn’t use the phrase “take a pass,” but what I would say to my folks is the bar is now significantly higher. The bar is not beyond a reasonable doubt,
Gov. Chris Christie
and it’s higher than that, and if you’re gonna bring me a cr- criminal case against the last administration,
Gov. Chris Christie
then it’s gonna have to be
Gov. Chris Christie
a slam dunk headshot that the, the simpleton in second year of law school would go, “Oh, yeah. That definitely is a crime.” I mean, that’s the kind of thing that they would have, the kind of place they would have to reach. And when they complained to me about it, which they would, I’d say to them, “This is what we’ve inherited, and it’s not the way I would normally operate. It wasn’t the way I operated when I had pr- prosecutorial authority, but this is different now, and we’re here to serve the country,
Gov. Chris Christie
and I’m not gonna get into a tit for tat situation over this stuff.” And I do agree with you that the Ford pardon was correct. And, and the Ford pardon, in my view, was correct because the country is more important than the criminal liability of any one person.
David French
Which is why the Ford pardon was incorrect. [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
No. It’s, it’s, you’re just, you’re just wrong, David. I mean, the, the fact is the country needed to move on from it, and the idea of having some year, year and a half long criminal trial of Richard Nixon, um, would have put, set the country back even further. Richard Nixon was punished in a way that no one else in the history of this country has been punished. He resigned the presidency of the United States after bein- being reelected with 49 of the 50 states. If you don’t think-That that’s an ample punishment? You don’t because you’ve never been elected to an executive position, uh, by the people of your state or your country. And to have to look and give that back because of your own conduct is a greater punishment, in my view, than spending 18 months at a federal prison camp at, at Allenwood.
David French
I’m letting the governor have the last word here, but it’s a short preview ’cause we’re gonna tangle again very soon. On April 9th, we’re gonna be debating, Governor, the legality of sports gambling at Chicago, University of Chicago, and I’ve been thinking hard about what to name this clash. Because, you know, the War on the Shore is taken, the Thrilla in Manila is taken, the Rumble in the Jungle, and there’s no shore, there’s no Manila, there’s no jungle, and the stakes are lower than actual physical combat, and it’s in Chic- u- at the University of Chicago. [laughs] I was thinking something more lighthearted like the Lark in Hyde Park, but, uh, I, I don’t know, I don’t know.
Gov. Chris Christie
David, you can call, you can call it whatever you like. But I can’t imagine that we’re gonna have a disagreement over the legality of sports betting in America, um, because it seems to me that, that it’s, it’s, it’s crystal clear. But hey, um, I can’t wait to get out to Chicago. I think that’s the ninth, right, of April? Can’t wait to get out there to find out what focaccia position you’re gonna be taking on sports gambling in, uh, in, in, in Chicago on the ninth.
David French
I’m just asking you, Governor, whatever happens, don’t Rubio me. Do not Rubio me. Like, I was gonna come into this and talk some trash and everything, but then I realized, I, I watched the demolition of a presidential candidacy in, like, 90 seconds and I th- and I thought, “Well, I’ll just refrain from the normal trash talk, and, and, uh, just, you know, ask for a tad bit of forbearance maybe. Just, just, like, 5%.”
Gov. Chris Christie
No forbearance. No forbearance of any kind. If you’re gonna name this thing, you get no forbearance.
Sarah Isgur
There is the Ford pardon of Nixon on which David and I disagree, though I see his position. I just can’t get there. I was raised to believe that that was one of the great, you know, political sacrifices for the country, what Ford did. But the other great thing that David and I disagree about [laughs] is when
Sarah Isgur
a college student asks,
Sarah Isgur
“I love your podcast. Should I go to law school?”
Sarah Isgur
What would you tell them, Governor?
Gov. Chris Christie
I’ll tell them what I… ‘Cause I do get asked this a decent amount by folks when I go to universities. And what I would say is, “It’s a great education.
Gov. Chris Christie
It’s a great way to learn how to think, how to analyze problems, and how to craft compromise, and to understand where our country came from and what it’s based on.” ‘Cause my view’s always been that this country is at bottom based upon freedom from government oppression and the rule of law. And so I think it’s, it’s a great education to get. You don’t have to go and be a practicing attorney if you don’t want to. You don’t have to go to big law and, you know, you know, bait stamp documents for three years. You, you don’t have to, you know, do any of that if you don’t want to.
Gov. Chris Christie
But I think that most people I know who have taken their law, legal education seriously, have benefited from getting a, getting a law degree, whether you wind up being a practicing lawyer or not. And, and when you look at a number of people who have been enormously successful
Gov. Chris Christie
in pursuits that are outside of the practice of law, a large percentage of those people have a JD degree, and I do think that that is at least a contributing factor to why they’ve been successful. So I don’t know where each one of you have landed on this.
Sarah Isgur
No, it’s because the incentives are so well-aligned to get the hell out of a law firm. [laughs]
David French
No, I’m taking the dub on this one. Sarah, you know I just took the dub on that one. That was… I, I have the governor on my side. I mean, which-
Gov. Chris Christie
Sarah tells people not to go to law school?
Sarah Isgur
I tell people, “Don’t go to law school unless you know what it means and want to be a lawyer at a law firm.”
Gov. Chris Christie
Why is that the requirement?
Sarah Isgur
Because too often they look at people like you and think, “That looks awesome. I wanna be Chris.” And it’s like, no, that’s very, very statistically unlikely, because they don’t really know what the denominator is, ’cause all the people that they see with those, you know, doing fun jobs have JDs. But, like, that’s misleading because those people basically were so miserable at law firms, they decided to do anything but, and I will note, took real pay cuts to do it. And so you’ve also got to avoid that golden handcuff problem, which a lot of people get trapped in.
Gov. Chris Christie
Sarah, I’m statistically unlikely, okay?
Gov. Chris Christie
I- I… When, when I entered law school in 1984, if someone had told me, “Oh, by the way,
Gov. Chris Christie
in 17 years you’re gonna be US attorney,
Gov. Chris Christie
and then 25 years from now you’re gonna be elected governor of New Jersey,” I would’ve told them they were crazy. Outright nuts.
Gov. Chris Christie
I, I don’t think, at least my view’s always been, and this is what I’ve told my children, too, you don’t decide what you wanna do with your life based upon statistical probabilities. You decide what you wanna do with your life
Gov. Chris Christie
based on what you think may bring meaning to your life. And, and then figure out how to make money at it. Then figure out how to be successful at it. But if you’re miserable with what you do,
Gov. Chris Christie
then none of the rest of it’s worth it. So you know the way you get rid of golden handcuffs at big law?
Gov. Chris Christie
Stop being miserable and leave, okay? I don’t think any of this stuff is, is a death sentence. So I’m, I am… Given what you’ve done with your life-With the education that you’ve received and earned,
Gov. Chris Christie
it’s stunning to me that somebody like you would advise others not to, and I can only conclude that it’s because you don’t want the competition.
Sarah Isgur
I think that’s fair too. Yeah, I meet a lot of these young people that are incredibly talented, and I’m like, “Yeah, definitely don’t, don’t do that.”
Gov. Chris Christie
That high school kid, I, I, I’m gonna be out of the workforce by the time she gets in. I’m done. I listen to her.
David French
Just to be clear here, I got the win and you got a scolding. Like, this is the best. [laughs]
Sarah Isgur
It’s true, actually. Now, at this point, it’s a full win and a scolding. But Governor, it’s… So when I graduated from law school, the starting salary, uh, was 190 at Big Law, and I made, uh, 65. And so everyone else took a fun bar trip to Asia and toured around amazing places. I went to go work at the NRSC.
Gov. Chris Christie
And, and, and by the way, how has, how has it turned out?
Sarah Isgur
If you are willing to do that because you want one of these careers, that’s great, but I think a lot of people want both, right? They want the Big Law salary, and they wanna be, you know, David French when they grow up.
Gov. Chris Christie
Well, any kind of [beep] who thinks you can have both is gonna fail whether they go to law school or not. That’s that. Okay? I mean, like, like I don’t think that… You know, like if you think you can have your cake and eat it too,
Gov. Chris Christie
if that’s what your goal is in life,
Gov. Chris Christie
forget it. You’re, you’re, you’re probably not gonna get either.
Gov. Chris Christie
And so, you know, part of your job as a parent, and given how young your children are, I can, I c- I can give you this advice, Sarah,
Gov. Chris Christie
is to make your children understand that there’s only two things in life they can control. This is the other thing that I tell college students all the time. There are only two things in your professional life you can control: how hard you work and how you treat other people.
Gov. Chris Christie
And if you work hard and you treat other people with respect and dignity and integrity and kindness, you’re gonna land pretty well.
Sarah Isgur
Well, that’s a great place to end on. I, I’m trying to teach my five-year-old about trade-offs, and so yesterday he wanted to play Skee-Ball, so we took him to the arcade, but we got home too late to make his favorite, you know, just like a whole chicken in the oven. He calls it inside chicken. So he was going to bed, and the inside chicken wasn’t ready yet, and so I explained what trade-offs are. And I said, “So knowing what you know now, would you rather have played Skee-Ball but not gotten inside chicken or gotten the inside chicken but not gotten to play Skee-Ball?” And he thought for a moment, and he said, “For a lot of other chickens, McDonald’s, Chick-fil-A,
Sarah Isgur
I would rather play Skee-Ball. But for inside chicken,
Sarah Isgur
I wish we hadn’t gone.” [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
And that says something about your ability, Sarah, to prepare an inside chicken.
Sarah Isgur
To be clear, it’s Scott. I don’t do the inside chicken. I, I… He says that Mommy’s omelets are better than Daddy’s, but Daddy does inside chicken.
David French
I love it that you’re teaching him trade-offs at age five. Does this mean, like, it’s age six is gonna be dangers of central planning and road to serfdom?
Gov. Chris Christie
David, do you have any doubt about that? [laughs] I mean, come on. Like, zero doubt. That’s exa- This kid is… This kid, you know what this kid needs to do? I’m gonna tell you right now, Sarah. He needs to come up this summer for a week to stay with Uncle Chris.
Sarah Isgur
Oh, no. [laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
He needs to stay with Uncle Chris at the Jersey Shore. And let me just say, he’ll learn trade-offs all right.
Gov. Chris Christie
A- and he’ll learn, he’ll learn a lot of other stuff too. And since Skee-Ball was invented here in New Jersey,
Gov. Chris Christie
in Atlantic City, New Jersey, Skee-Ball was invented, we could take him to the original Skee-Ball machines, and he could play Skee-Ball like he’s never played it before, and there might be other, few other things that he might learn here, um, in, in, a- at the Jersey Shore this summer. It’s where all young men-
Sarah Isgur
[laughs]
Gov. Chris Christie
… learn lots of important lessons.
Sarah Isgur
I think I’ve seen some movies about that. All right, everyone.
Sarah Isgur
This was your special AO treat, a little, uh, Mrs. Ashcroft yellow cake with chocolate frosting on a plate a la mode. Governor Chris Christie, thank you for joining us.
Gov. Chris Christie
Sarah, David, thank you. And Sarah, I think we’re gonna need to come back after the lark in Hyde Park to, to be able to review what happened, uh, on, on April 9th in Chicago. And by the way, no calling Marco between now and April 9th to get any hints, all right? Team AO, thank you for having me. [upbeat music]
